★★★クラシック音楽用コンサートホール★★★
■ このスレッドは過去ログ倉庫に格納されています
0001名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG●大阪＝ザ・シンフォニーホール（母体：朝日新聞社）
日本におけるクラシック音楽専用大ホールの先駆的存在。
音響は世界最高レベル。
●東京＝サントリーホール（母体：サントリー）
カラヤンが設計に関わった音楽都市東京の象徴的存在。
美しいワイナリー形式の座席数は約2300でシンフォニーホールより一回り大きい。
●横浜＝みなとみらいホール（横浜市文化振興財団が運営（←笑））
音響は悪い。センスは物凄く悪い。
後発の有利性を生かすことすらできなかった最低最悪の猿真似。
横浜市文化振興財団が運営しているというところに、横浜における企業メッセの貧弱さが露呈している。
0391名無しのめぞ
NGNGホールを罵倒するスレではなかったですか？
0392名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG横浜と同じだね。横浜は精神が田舎だな。
みなとみらいホールって意味無いよなぁ。
0393名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGここでまで見るのはうんざりじゃい。
0395名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGフェスティバルホールとバービカンセンターでコンサートを聴きたいと
思っていますが、音響はどうなんでしょうか？
知ってる人いたら教えて下さい。
0396名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG直接的ではあるけど。フェスはちょっと大き過ぎるかな。
でも、オケを聴くならバービカンはほとんどロンドン響。
0397名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGフェスは聴いたことがないけれど、バービカンは意外とよくてびっくりした。
特に、弦の音が暖かく響くなぁっていう印象があるよ。
0398名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG0399名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGロンドンフィルってどうもいまいち。
フィルハーモニア管で聴いたらいいホールだと思ったが。
0400名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGステージに近い席が良い。stallsかannexe
バービカンは視覚的に楽しくない。
0401名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG0402名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG0403名無しさん
NGNG前にちょっとデカいやつが座ったくらいでほとんど見えなくなっちゃうようなのは
泣きたくなる。e＋でチケット取るとそういうことが結構ある(T_T)
0405名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGそうです。
0406名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG0407名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG同意。
音楽ホールに2000以上の座席は不要と思う。
横浜みなとみらいホールは見栄だけでサントリーホールを上回る2000以上の座席にしたときく。
最低。
0409名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG神奈川フィルの存在意義って、何だろう？
0410名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG君の言い分に二言はないだろうね。2000以上の座席のある
ホールは音楽用としてはアカンというわけだね。あとでほえ
づらかくなよ。言い訳するなら、いまのうち。
0411名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGシューボックスで2000席以上のホールは音響ダメだよ。横浜みなとみらいホールがその例。
0412名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG0413名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG410とは違うけど、あなたのは単にみなとみらいをおとしめた
いがためのようなものいいだね。つまんない輩だね。
君の顔が青ざめることを教えてあげようか。シューボックス
型に限定すると、ウィーンの楽友協会大ホールが代表例
だね。あそこは君の観点だとだめなのかい？公称されていな
いけど、2000人分以上の座席があるんだよ。満員だったらみ
なとみらいが満員の時より多いだろうな（藁
0415>414
NGNG少なくとも妖しげな反射音や、エコーっぽい残響が響くホールよりも
素直な音です。
0416名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG休憩時間の長蛇の列は、ちょっとコミケを思い出してしまった。
アニヲタより。
0417４１３
NGNGあなたは４１１？日本語もわからないし、前のスレすら読んでいないヴァカなの？
みなとみらいを楽友協会といっしょにする議論をしているのは、むしろ４１１な
んだよ。シューボックス型で2000席以上のものはだめだ、と言うものいいがね。
みなとみらいが楽友協会ホールよりいいなんてこというつもりは毛頭ないが、
４１５さんの言うとおり、こきおろすほど悪いものではないな。
0418名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGなんでこんなにいるんだ？ それとも全部同一人物か？
どうせたいしたホールで聴いたことないクセに。
0419名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGアンチ横浜市が一人で難癖つけてるみたい（ｗ
少し前に理論的にやりこめられたから、
今度は徹底的に「座席数」のみで頑張ってる模様。
（更にバカだという事に気付いていない）
今後はいっさい無視しましょう…。
0420名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGつきつめれば音楽全般は「好みの問題」ということも出来るでしょ。
ここの最近の話の流れと違うけど、私はみなとみらいは好きではない。
とても「自然な響き」、とは思えないから。
414さんのいう所の、妖しげな反射音、エコーっぽい残響はそのまま
みなとみらいにあてはまると思っちゃうから。
0421名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG激しく同意。
みなとみらいの音響が素晴らしいなんて言っている人は、「生の音」を聴く”耳”を持っていないと思え。
そういう類の人は、家でＣＤ聴いていれば充分、思うがね。
0422名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGよいホール」と認定され、ホールの音響技術に深くかかわった6社9名が
第9回「技術開発賞」を受賞した。
0423名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGみなとみらいは、演奏するのはまだ良いけど
お客さんで行くと、やだ。
耳が慣れてないのもあるが、
トリフォニーみたいに、開館後音響さわってんのかな？
0424名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGホール以前。
こわしてよし。
0425名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGラトルの推薦で，ロスに新築するホールの
参考のためにってことで，わざわざ施設見学
のためだけに，昨年，札幌くんだりまでサロ
ネンもきたくらい。
0426名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGCOVER STORY
The Soul of the Hall
As the Philharmonic's new home goes up, the critical job of ensuring good sound comes down to one
man.
By MARK SWED
With its twining skeleton rising dramatically downtown, Walt Disney Concert Hall is taking shape
at last. For
Yasuhisa Toyota next to a model of the Disney Hall interior.
AL SEIB / Los Angeles Times
years, drawings and models of Frank O. Gehry's celebrated design have portended an architectural
wonder for Los Angeles. Finally, all that promise has an imposing physical presence.
Even so, a concert hall is much more than real estate, structural steel and a burnished-wave
exterior. Its true virtue is empty space？and the air that fills it. How well sound travels through that
air will determine Disney Hall's ultimate success.
And for that there is only trust in the mysterious, ambiguous science of acoustics. Scale
models and computer simulations can demonstrate the motion of sound waves, yet relatively few
modern concert halls have stunning sound. Virtual reality cannot replicate the visceral sensation of
sitting in a space and hearing it resound with real, unamplified music.
Which is why Yasuhisa Toyota, chief concert-hall acoustician of the Japanese firm Nagata
Acoustics, has recently moved to Los Angeles from Tokyo. He has been at work on Disney Hall for
more than a decade. Theories have been elaborated, plans drawn, experiments undertaken. Now he
must make sure his plans are followed precisely, that nothing comes along at the last minute to derail
them.
0427名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGone example of a potential problem. We are looking at a cutaway mock-up of the Disney interior at
Gehry's office in Santa Monica. The 48-year-old acoustician？bearded, stylishly dressed, cheerful but
intense？is concerned that the lights may suck up sound. He will compensate with three layers of
glass, an acoustical seal, which will have to be applied just so.
“Very small things can affect the acoustics in a concert hall in a very big way,” he warns.
There are so many very small things in the design of Disney Hall, the most architecturally
complex concert hall ever attempted, that Toyota's ultimate assurance must wait until the Los
Angeles Philharmonic plays its first rehearsal there in the summer of 2003. With a big laugh, Deborah
Borda, the orchestra's general manager, suggests that she will gladly treat a critic to a first-class
plane ticket to Paris on the day of the first Disney Hall tryout？anything to keep the press away from
that nervous moment.
In fact, the Philharmonic doesn't appear overly worried about the sound of Disney Hall. Toyota
is Japan's leading acoustician. He came to renown in 1986 with his design for Suntory Hall, Tokyo's
premier concert space. His greatest achievement thus far is Sapporo Concert Hall, which opened in
1997 in the capital city of the northern Japanese island of Hokkaido.
It is Kitara, as Sapporo has nicknamed its new hall (the made-upword, chosen by citywide
competition, implies the name of a musical instrument), that has most successfully put Philharmonic
officials' minds at relative ease. It shares Disney's acoustical design. Put the schematics for the
interior of the two halls on top of one another and they reveal a close fit: the same general interior
shape, seating layout and the theater's footprint
0428名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGstage manager Paul Geller and Los Angeles County Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky flew to Sapporo to
experience Kitara for themselves. I went along to observe.
“This is it,” Borda whispered excitedly to Salonen upon being ushered into an orchestra
rehearsal in the theater. “This is exactly Disney Hall!”
Kitara lacks Gehry's architectural exuberance and the complications of his fantastical design.
But the
"From my point of view, the concert hall is a big instrument," says acoustician Yasuhisa Toyota,
outside the under-construction Walt Disney Hall.
AL SEIB / Los Angeles Times
broad layout of its plain, pleasantly minimalist space is recognizable if you've seen the models of
Disney Hall. Kitara's curved birch walls exude airiness. There is no proscenium stage or balconies.
The orchestra sits on risers almost at ground level, and islands of audience members surround the
players in stepped-up tiers. Nearly every seat in the theater offers the sensation of direct contact
with the musicians and the music.
The sound is utterly alive. Salonen describes it as clear yet very warm. “Usually in concert halls
you have either clarity or the warmth？for both qualities to exist together is almost unique,” he says,
offering his enthusiastic first impression. “If we manage to build a hall that sounds as good, we will be
very, very happy.”
This response, widespread among musicians who have performed in Kitara (Simon Rattle, for
example), pleases Toyota but does not lessen his concerns for Disney.
“There is always so much pressure when a concert hall opens,” he says, “but the fact that this
one is such important architecture and so important for Los Angeles makes even more pressure.”
0429名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGChandler Pavilion. Completed in 1964 and meant to present everything from orchestral music to
recitals, operas to spoken theater, the Chandler is one big acoustical compromise.
If you hear the Philharmonic there, you will have the distinct impression of being in one room
while the orchestra plays next door. Listeners are more like eavesdroppers. The bass instruments are
not distinct, and there almost seems to be a veil dropped over the sound.
In 1988, after Gehry's design was selected for Disney Hall, the architect, Philharmonic general
manager Ernest Fleischmann, and others involved in the project sampled the world's most famous
halls and settled on the Philharmonie in Berlin as an acoustical model. Created by architect Hans
Sharoun and acoustician Lothar Cremer in 1963 for the Berlin Philharmonic, it did away with the
traditional stage, balconies and box seats, and put the orchestra in the center of the audience. A
listener feels in touch with the musicians,the path of music to ear seems more direct than in a
conventional hall
0430名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGscheme？called the “vineyard” design because the audience sits in vineyard-like terraces？has not
caught on universally. There is no place for orchestra or conductor tohide, the immediacy of the
sound exposes any defect(the Berlin Philharmonic of the '60s was led by the glamorous Herbert von
Karajan and fine-tuned into an incomparable ensemble).
“Such a concert hall is like a lens that enlarges the differences between a good and a lesser
orchestra,” Toyota explains. It also focuses on the audience？any whisper, cough or rustled candy
wrapper has a noticeable presence as well？which could be a problem with a typically noisy American
audience.
There is, of course,the age-old shoe-box shape, like Boston's legendary Symphony Hall, which
presents the orchestra formally, on a proscenium stage and at a remove that can be interpreted as
elegant. But a shoe box works best if it is relatively small, less than 2,000 seats, which is not
economically feasible for a large American orchestra with a multimillion-dollar budget. Nor does it
offer radically new architectural possibilities.
0431名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGwhich allows for the audience to sit in the chorus seats behind the orchestra but retains balconies
and boxes. However, it proved no acoustical marvel when it opened in 1980. Only after a substantial
renovation, which tempered its overpowering glare, has it become acceptable.
What helped clinch the Philharmonic's decision to go with the vineyard design was Suntory Hall,
which had opened shortly before the Disney Hall research began. Working under Nagata Acoustics'
founder, Minoru Nagata (now retired), Toyota had fully embraced Cremer's groundbreaking acoustical
plan, and he added refinements of his own to Suntory. He made great strides in solving the one
significant drawback in Berlin, where the musicians say they have trouble hearing themselves on the
stage (Kitara is a further improvement).
Suntory established Toyota as the leading advocate of the vineyard layout, and after
consultations with Nagata, the Philharmonic decided that thrilling surround sound and an in-your-face
relationship between players and audience was ultimately no vice. Besides, the number of seats
penciled out and the expansive shape met the demands of the architect's imagination.
Toyota likes a vineyard design for the sheer physical sensation of being a part of the sound.
“From my point of view,” he says, “the concert hall is a big instrument. The stage floor is
forced to vibrate by the deep bass instruments, the cellos, basses, timpani, piano and so forth. So the
floor of the concert hall actually becomes part of those instruments.”
0432名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGaudience's ears. So it is as instrument builderas well as engineer that he has approached Disney Hall.
At his high-tech office in Tokyo, Toyota is every inch the theoretician. He escorts me to
various computers, each with its own animated programs that show sound waves beamed and
reflected in Gehryan space. To an untrained eye, they look like highly advanced forms of the
computer games blasting away in the nearby Shinjuku pachinko parlors.
But when I sit inside the cutaway model of Disney Hall at Gehry's Santa Monica office, with
Toyota standing over me describing refinements and materials, he isthe craftsman, fiddling with angles
and slopes, materials and finishes, as a violin maker might.
He has lately asked for two substantial changes in the interior design. He needs an elevation in
the rise of the tiers in front of the orchestra, and a small wall added behind the first section of seats.
Toyota, who has a doctorate in acoustical engineering, played oboe in his college orchestra, and his
musician's ear has told him something that his earlier calculations did not.
From listening to Kitara, he now realizes that a sharper slope and an added wall will provide
those sitting in the front seats with early reflections of the sound. This is always a problematic area
in concert halls because sound tends to shoot immediately to the rear of the theater and then
ricochet back.
Currently, Toyota is focusing on the issue of the Disney seats, which is the last of the major
design decisions. The process, he says, is typical of his collaboration with Gehry. Where Toyota has
specific requirements, the acoustician is unbending. In all other matters, he has an almost amused
detachment.
0433名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGthe same absorption properties of the human body, so that the hall's sound won't vary depending on
how many seats are filled. And the wood on the seat backs must be just the right hardness, to
properly reflect sound. But he has no concern about their height, depth, width or shape. That's for
Gehry to decide.
The color doesn't matter, does it? I ask jokingly.
“No,” he replies, laughing, and then says that anything is possible and maybe it could.
The red fabric on the samples in Gehry's office might add to the hall's warmth; if the seats were
blue, people might perceive a cooler sound.
“Psycho-acoustics is a delicate issue, but it is important,” Toyota admits.
He points to the walls of the concert hall model. In Kitara, the light birch and simple curved
lines help create a sense of openness that everyone notices. Will Disney Hall's Douglas fir suggest
something cozier, even though the two woods have the same acoustic properties?
“The material of the walls affects not only the way an audience hears music,” Toyota says,
“but even more important, it can affect the way a musician plays.”
Physics dictates the necessary hardness of the wall covering. Any material that fits the specs
will do, including concrete of the right formula and texture.
But tell that to a musician.
0434名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGwood is an acoustical material and concrete is not. So they will likely play differently if they sense
that they are not in what looks to them like a friendly acoustical environment.”
Toyota returns to the subject of the all-important stage floor, the place where a direct
connection is made with the musicians. It is critical that it be made of a very soft and pliant wood
For Kitara, he specified a rare Japanese wood, hinoki, which is too expensive to export for Disney.
Here, he has searched out a pine that has almost the same sonic properties.
Gehry's elaboratedesign seems as though it would present Toyota with his greatest challenges.
What about, say, the organ pipes that jut forward in a chaotic tangle, is that good or bad? Pipes
absorb low frequencies, Toyota explains, and their shapes must be compensated for in any hall with
an organ. Their unusual placement in Disney Hall, however, is not important.
In fact, Toyota claims to be happiest when working with a rule-breaking architect. He points
with particular pride to his collaboration on the Kyoto Concert Hall with Arata Isozaki, the same risk-
taking Japanese architect who designed the Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles.
“If it looks good, it is always good for me,” is Toyota's motto.
It's an attitude that has won over Gehry, who admits that it has not always been easy to
accommodate acoustical needs.
0435名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGrecent press conference for the concert hall. He has already brought Toyota in on another, smaller
concert hall he is designing for Bard College in New York.
Still, Disney has not exactly been smooth sailing for Toyota. “I don't like to use the term
compromise,” Toyota says of some of the things he has been forced to accept in Disney.
One sticking pointis a small balcony, which will give the hall some extra seats. Although Disney
has a footprint that is slightly smaller than Kitara, and the same distance between the stage and rear
seats, it will have 2,273 seats, whereas Kitara has just 2,008. And the last row of seats underneath
that balcony presents special problems.
In a concert hall, if you can see the ceiling, which is where most of the sound is initially
reflected, you are in a good position to hear. Because the ceiling won't be visible from the seats in
that rear row, Toyota is mulling adjustments that will deliver a maximum amount of direct sound there.
To solve these kinds of problems, Toyota relies on physical data about the exactway sound
waves will move in this space. At his request, a detailed model of the Disney interior, to a one-tenth
scale, was constructed for acoustical tests (it is on public display outside the Dorothy Chandler
Pavilion). In it, he placed small microphones throughout the seating areas and experimented with test
tones 10 times higher than the frequencies produced by orchestral music.
Other acoustical tests have been taking place in public without the public necessarily being
aware of them. Toyota designed the orchestra's risers for Disney Hall several years ago; they were
built and the Philharmonic now uses them in the Chandler Pavilion. Risers, it turns out, can also make
a big difference.
0436名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGintermission that cellist Mischa Maisky and pianist Martha Argerich weren't being heard to their best
advantage, because they were playing on an empty stage. For the second half, the hall's risers, which
reflect sound for a soloist, were installed behind them, and, sure enough, there was more sonic impact.
Backstage afterward, Argerich agreed with Toyota that the risers had helped.
But then Toyota cautioned that acoustical science alone might not fully explain what was at
work. Concerts always sound different after intermission, he pointed out, once the musicians have
settled in and the audience's ears have become acclimated.
For the next year and a half, Toyota will be a regular presence at the Disney Hall construction
site. As the interior begins to take shape, he will be continually checking drawings, making tests？
some of which are intuitive, like tapping everything in sight？and making adjustments.
Once rehearsals begin, his fiddling will go into high gear. He is leaving some things, such as the
final position of an adjustable wall behind the stage, until opening night. And even then the hall will not
be finished.
0437名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGcompletion. But some materials can take three, four or even five years to completely settle.
On opening night in Sapporo, 3ｽ years ago, Toyota reports that Kitara sounded just as it does
today. But that was not the case for the Kyoto Concert Hall, which opened in 1994. He describes it
as “dead” that first night？the sound lacking presence？even though the data from the physical
measurements and tests indicated that it should have been fine.
Not knowing what to do, Toyota did nothing. Three months later, he claims, the hall sounded
just as he had always hoped it would.
Why?
“I have no idea,” Toyota answers. “If I knew the answer, I could make a Stradivarius. But with
all our computers, all our knowledge, we cannot make even one Stradivarius. And if you consider a
concert hall a very big instrument, it is much more complicated than a violin, much more difficult to
make and much more difficult to understand.
“It is all those unknown factors that make it such a challenge but also so interesting. And with
so many risks.”
Mark Swed is The Times' music critic.
0438名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG横浜みなとみらいホールの音響は悪い
0439名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGＬＡのディズニーホール関係者がキタラホールを参考にしているってことよ。
0440名無しの笛の踊り
NGNGあくまで横浜を貶めたいアンチ横浜の厨房。英語すら読めないところ
でお里が知れる田舎者（藁。
おおかた、横浜の女学生をナンパして、カッペ扱いされて根にもっている
ストーカー野郎だな。逝っていいよ。
0441名無しの笛の踊り
NGNG―――┴┴┴┴┴―――――、
/. ￣￣￣//.￣￣| ||￣￣￣|||￣ |｜ ＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿
/. ∧// ∧ ∧| || ||| |｜ ／
[/＿＿__(ﾟ_//[ ].ﾟДﾟ,,) ||＿＿＿||| |｜ ＜ 1を迎えに来ました
||_. * ＿|_|￣￣ ∪|.|. |ヽ. _|｜ ＼＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿
lO|o―o|O゜.|二二 松|.|沢 精神病院 ||
| ∈口∋￣_l＿＿ｌ⌒ｌ_|＿＿＿__|_ｌ⌒ｌ_||
￣￣`ー'￣ `ー' `ー' `ー'
■ このスレッドは過去ログ倉庫に格納されています